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City:Fort Wayne US
Membership19years 336days ago.
Last Login1year 272days ago.
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teramaze is currently Offline!Send a mail to teramaze


Message header
Area/Game:Blue Max
Topic:Rules
Subject:Re: Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
Posted by: teramaze - 17years 349days ago.
Message text
Calsir wrote:
TXWard wrote:

Unless you know what the pilot instructions were for the Fokker D.VII, shouldn't apples be compared to apples? The "effective flying time" for the S.E.5a was 1-1/2 hrs., that of the Fokker D.VII was 1 hr. This gives the S.E.5a a 150% advantage over the D.VII, which is even better than the 140% in the game.



I beg to dissent. Effective flight time is not effective combat time. They have nothing to do with each other. Effective flight time (flight endurance) is more related with combat range, as in: go where the enemy is, fight, come back. The longer the endurance, the further you can fly.

Combat endurance is basically how long you can fight. Nowadays, with jet fighters with fuel guzzling afterburners, altitude is much less important as an energy storage, since you can basically go through a fuel tank in less than 10 minutes of dogfight. This is because modern a/c (and, to some extent, WWII a/c) fly at different fuel economy between cruise and combat, with at least an order of magnitude in fuel consumption difference. Fuel IS a major factor for disengagement in contemporary times.

In WWI, on the other hands, engines more or less ran at full power all the time and, barring airscrew design issues, more or less consumed the same amount of fuel in combat and 'cruise'.

The whole point revolves around a single argument: the engine power at those time was insufficient to feed combat manoeuvring (fast rolling and high g turning). The only other sources of energy were speed and altitude. As usual, barring odd situations, speed is life. Go slow and you are a sitting duck. Go fast and you may live. This basically means two things:

1) in order to manoeuvre you have to loose altitude.
2) since, with increasing speed, engine _thrust_ decreases, climb whenever you can to regain energy.

If a fight is tight, both opponents drop from the sky to treetop level in few minutes, as Phil Hall correctly wrote, citing the majority of WWI AARs.

As a last point, if you check BM design notes (http://pease1.sr.unh.edu/1/bluemax/designnotes.html you will notice that an air combat is supposed to last two minutes, which is at least one order of magnitude less than the effective flight time everybody has given in this discussion. It means, to me, that the whole fuel system (different a/cs) having different fuel capacities) is inconsistent.

In my opinion, the only consistent way to keep in check game length is to set a hard limit on game turns, since it looks quite unfeasible to introduce a good system to handle altitude and energy.

I could go further boring everybody about how manoeuvring is more important than speed to energy management, or do some math to demonstrate what I just stated, but I will stop this already too long post here.

--
Calsir


the best way to limit game is not fuel and or turns. it is ammo seeing the the avg front belt fed guns on both sides were 300 rounds per gun and round the same for rear or observers. you just can not use a short burst of ammo is five round as phil hall stated. it is more like ten to 15 rounds per short burst. but that does mean a major rewrite of the game but it can be done.

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17years 353days Killer1 [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 353days Capt-Tuttle Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days FENRIS Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days ksnake Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days SteveMartin Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days Ray_Collishaw Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
 17years 352days ksnake Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
  17years 352days redwom Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
  17years 352days SteveMartin Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days FENRIS Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days Ray_Collishaw Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days warrax Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days DBurkeG Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days gugliandalf Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
 17years 351days DBurkeG Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days Zif Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days imdog Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 345days Killer1 Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 344days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days Wishgamer Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days warrax Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
 17years 352days Regis Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
  17years 346days tyree Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days Swartz Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days Capt-Tuttle Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days TnT Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days ksnake Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days FENRIS Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
 17years 352days docmortand Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days rainbow Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days BlackSheep Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 352days tyree Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
 17years 352days Calsir Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
 17years 351days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
  17years 351days tyree Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
   17years 351days Zif Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
   17years 350days ksnake Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
   17years 350days ksnake Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
   17years 350days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    17years 350days TXWard Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
     17years 350days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
      17years 350days TXWard Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
       17years 349days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
        17years 349days TXWard Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
         17years 349days Calsir Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
         17years 349days TXWard Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
         17years 349days teramaze Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
         17years 349days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
          17years 348days Calsir Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
           17years 348days teramaze Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
           17years 348days TXWard Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
            17years 348days Calsir Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
           17years 347days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
            17years 347days Calsir Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
             17years 346days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
         17years 349days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
         17years 349days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
         17years 349days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
          17years 349days DBurkeG Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
           17years 349days TXWard Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
           17years 349days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
            17years 348days DBurkeG Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
             17years 348days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
   17years 350days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
17years 350days Bombadil Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
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 17years 348days tyree Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
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