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City:Fort Wayne US
Personal Data:Male,
Membership19years 195days ago.
Last Login14years 184days ago.
Last Move16years 233days ago.
HeadMMoid is currently Offline!Send a mail to HeadMMoid


Message header
Area/Game:Blue Max
Topic:Suggestions, improvement, critics
Subject:Re: Fixing German Fuel Tanks
Posted by: HeadMMoid - 16years 267days ago.
Message text
SteveMartin wrote:
How many of ALL casualties were cause by such occurences is probably impossible to know, but given the flimsy and open nature of these aircraft I think we can assume that the odds are well reflected by the counter mix.

The original damage counter mix had 2 Pilot Killed chits out of 36 total chits. One was a "double Pilot Killed" chit, (i.e., a red and a blue Pilot Killed side), which everyone removed from play (the rules even indicated that this should be done).

On to point 2. Realism. Well the reality was, German aircraft have less enduance. All of our combats are assumed to be over the front lines, not on one side or the other. Now this very fact is of course a fallacy as battles were more often than not behind one side or the other. Specific scenario rules (and I am not opposed to these,) could be generated to reflect such a situation and fuel loads could be altered to reflect flight to the target area. It would never result in the Germans being given a larger fuel load, only in the Allies having less. The game as it stands, however, does NOT assume that the combats are going on anywhere other than over the front line.

German FIGHTER aircraft often did have less endurance - an accurate point (their observation aircraft, however, where known for long flight times). Unfortunately for this analysis, it is based on a false assumption -- that fuel was a limiting factor in tactual combat. Put quite simply, it was not. In all my reading on the subject I have encountered only one mention of a situation in which a single aircraft exited combat due to a fuel shortage, and it was a British Pup. If fuel had been an issue, it would surely have been mentioned more often. Rather, the typical causes for ending combat included;
  • Observer injury
  • Weapon damage
  • Expenditure of ammunition
  • Pilot injury (including death)
  • Fuel tank damage causing a leak leading to smoke or fire
  • Control surface damage rendering the aircraft less maneuverable
  • Wing damage which reduced lift (including a nasty tendency of some aircraft to shed their wings in dives)
  • Engine damage
  • And by far, far the most common - the simple loss of perspective, where the pilot flew out of combat without realizing it.

    We can argue changes in fuel allocations and variances for different meeting situations, but ultimately all would be meaningless. The rules have a fatal flaw in their reliance on fuel to determine the length of a game. Given this, all the discussion really becomes academic. The site is not going to make significant changes which modify this situation. To fight over the issue is therefore effectively meaningless.

    Point 5. Ask ANY pilot which he would rather have, a full tank of fuel or half a tank.
    You are labouring under a misapprehension about aircraft loading. A full load of ordinance hanging from your wings certainly makes a big difference to your performance. A "CLEAN" configuration is the optimum for air to air combat. If you are as informed about flight mechanics as you say you are, then you should know that CLEAN configuration means full INTERNAL fuel.
    Our little planes here do not carry the thousands of pounds of fuel and or weapons that modern aircraft carry, indeed the internal fuel load of the F18C alone is more than FIVE TIMES the weight of a fully loaded SE5a (4900 kg vs 900 kg.) The principles of Energy loss and retention are the same, but the effects are nowhere near as pronounced. An Albatross weighing in at just over 1000kg is simply not going to gain the same amount of energy as an F18 weighing 16600kg, when it dives.
    Those considerations aside, Fuel State is still a primary determination when it comes to a decision to accept combat or not and the pilot who does not watch his fuel gauge will soon find himself walking home.

    I think we must all be very careful in making both sweeping statements about aircraft capabilities and general comparisons between World War I, World War II, and modern aircraft. The technologies and operational techniques are simply too different across these periods of time. For example, while your general statement about full tanks verses partial tanks seems reasonable, and I would not argue against it as a rough principle for First World War aircraft, it is often not true for modern aircraft. Many modern aircraft regularly takeoff with partial fuel tanks. USMC Harriers in short takeoff situations and USN aircraft launching from carriers (as just two specific instances) do this to allow for a greater ordnance loads. They expect to refuel immediately after launch. Further, I would have to question whether this entire point is really germain to the issue of the use of fuel as a limiting factor in tactial combat for World War I aircraft.

    I also wonder if you realize that your last sentence could be intrepreted as supporting the point that fuel is not an issue in tactical combat? That is, this is an argument contrary to what you have indicated elsewhere -- here indicating that fuel is an operational issue, not a tactical one.

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    16years 271days dvdswnn [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 271days ksnake Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 271days Bombadil Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 266days flying_neko Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 271days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 271days SteveMartin Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 271days SteveMartin Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 271days ksnake Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 269days Calsir Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 269days Calsir Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
     16years 269days SteveMartin Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 271days ksnake Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 270days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
     16years 270days ksnake Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 271days greif8 Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 271days DBurkeG Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 270days dvdswnn Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 270days BMBug Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 270days dvdswnn Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 269days BlackSheep Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 269days Calsir Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 269days SteveMartin Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
     16years 269days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
     16years 268days BlackSheep Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
      16years 268days BMBug Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
      16years 268days BlackSheep Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
       16years 267days BMBug Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
      16years 268days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
       16years 268days BlackSheep Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
        16years 268days SteveMartin Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
        16years 268days BlackSheep Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
         16years 267days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
          16years 267days BlackSheep Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
           16years 267days saltylog Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
           16years 266days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
           16years 264days BlackSheep Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
           16years 266days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
        16years 267days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
     16years 268days BMBug Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
     16years 268days SteveMartin Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
     16years 266days DBurkeG Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
     16years 268days Calsir Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
      16years 268days SteveMartin Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
      16years 267days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
      16years 267days BMBug Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
      16years 267days Calsir Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
      16years 264days BlackSheep Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
       16years 264days dvdswnn Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
       16years 264days BlackSheep Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
       16years 264days Calsir Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
        16years 264days BlackSheep Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 267days dvdswnn Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
     16years 265days dvdswnn Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
     16years 266days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 268days Killer1 Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 268days saltylog Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
     16years 266days Killer1 Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
      16years 266days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 266days ksnake Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 266days litehoof Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
     16years 266days SteveMartin Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
      16years 266days SteveMartin Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
       16years 265days ksnake Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
        16years 265days BMBug Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
        16years 265days GraysGhost Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
        16years 265days BlackSheep Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
        16years 265days SteveMartin Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
         16years 264days ksnake Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
         16years 264days ksnake Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
    16years 266days Templars Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
     16years 265days dvdswnn Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
      16years 265days Tornade Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
      16years 265days dvdswnn Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
      16years 265days dvdswnn Re: [BM][IDEAS] Fixing German Fuel Tanks
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    16years 265days BladeRunner [BM][HUMOUR] Stats Vs The Mighty ksnake
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    Previous thread
    Posting elapsed timePosted bySubject

    16years 274days SirLindsley [WS&IM][BUG] ok, what does WOODEN ships need?
    16years 274days Longneck Re: [WS&IM][BUG] ok, what does WOODEN ships need?
    16years 274days ksnake Re: [WS&IM][BUG] ok, what does WOODEN ships need?
    16years 273days BlackJoke Re: [WS&IM][BUG] ok, what does WOODEN ships need?
    16years 273days derekticus Re: [WS&IM][BUG] ok, what does WOODEN ships need?
    16years 273days derekticus Re: [WS&IM][BUG] ok, what does WOODEN ships need?
    16years 273days Longneck Re: [WS&IM][BUG] ok, what does WOODEN ships need?
    16years 273days ksnake Re: [WS&IM][BUG] ok, what does WOODEN ships need?
    16years 272days Calsir Re: [WS&IM][BUG] ok, what does WOODEN ships need?
    16years 272days SirLindsley Re: [WS&IM][BUG] ok, what does WOODEN ships need?
     16years 272days dcr66 Re: [WS&IM][BUG] ok, what does WOODEN ships need?
     16years 272days Longneck Re: [WS&IM][BUG] ok, what does WOODEN ships need?
     16years 271days dcr66 Re: [WS&IM][BUG] ok, what does WOODEN ships need?
      16years 266days derekticus Re: [WS&IM][BUG] ok, what does WOODEN ships need?
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